rpc wrote:in addition to what The Chief said, who's running the front page here at SP now that Aaron is gone? some choices (like this one) have been questionable imho.

Well Radek that would be me. I have done the job for the last tree years with Dave and Bob S helping pit whenever I was on vacation.

Having said this I must admit that I was not aware of the implications. To me it looked like the story of of cop evasion and like successful adventure. Also, it was not the first TR about a climb of ship rock.

Anyway it seems obvious that it wasn't a good idea to put up the TR on the front page. My apologies and I'll feature another TR.

NO NO LEAVE IT IN PLACE I SAY!!!!

There are indeed some very positive comments as to this misbehavior.

Franky wrote:It isn't clearly marked private property. I do understand how the reservation works. In fact, the land Ship Rock is on is Tribal Trust land. Not really privately owned unless you consider the Navajo Nation as a private entity.

You still don't get some things. What purposes does it serve to spray about it? NONE, NADA. Not everything needs to be written about. I take it you have a Facebook page and discuss every bowel movement, maybe even with photo's. Ok, you did it. Why don't you just talk about it with friends at the local pub over beers. Not everyone in the world needs to know it, pissing off the Navajo's and making anyone in the future who trys to do it in a legit manner, that much more difficult.

There's a beautiful 4 pitch ice climb on Navajo land but I'll wait until I can do it in a legit manner.

My personal attitude is not EVERYTHING needs to be climbed. If the locals want it left alone. Fine, I'll respect that.

The Chief wrote:NO NO LEAVE IT IN PLACE I SAY!!!!

There are indeed some very positive comments as to this misbehavior.

Agreed. Regardless of where you stand I think interesting trip reports should be on the front page. Gangolf has done well by that criteria.

CClaude wrote:

Franky wrote:It isn't clearly marked private property.

Selfish and totally disrespectful...

Edited for clarity.y

CClaude wrote:

Franky wrote:It isn't clearly marked private property. I do understand how the reservation works. In fact, the land Ship Rock is on is Tribal Trust land. Not really privately owned unless you consider the Navajo Nation as a private entity.

You still don't get some things. What purposes does it serve to spray about it? NONE, NADA. Not everything needs to be written about. I take it you have a Facebook page and discuss every bowel movement, maybe even with photo's. Ok, you did it. Why don't you just talk about it with friends at the local pub over beers. Not everyone in the world needs to know it, pissing off the Navajo's and making anyone in the future who trys to do it in a legit manner, that much more difficult.

There's a beautiful 4 pitch ice climb on Navajo land but I'll wait until I can do it in a legit manner.

My personal attitude is not EVERYTHING needs to be climbed. If the locals want it left alone. Fine, I'll respect that.

What purpose does telling a crazy story to your friends serve? It is fun to write interesting stuff down, fun to tell stories. I am not sure if i would have made a TR for this, for one I'm not the TR type, for two, I don't find sanctimonious replies to be funny, i find them to be irritating. However, I think the TR my partner wrote is great, and I sent it to some of my friends and family to read.

The Chief wrote:

CClaude wrote:

Franky wrote:It isn't clearly marked private property.

BULLSHIT!

I have been to that area many a times in the past thirty years and will verify that Ship Rock, Monument Vally, Canyon de Chelley and several other areas, are clearly posted as Navajo Lands and are Private Property

Well Chief, I was just there, and you are wrong. It is actually irrelevant because I am not claiming we didn't know that it was illegal, we knew. However, your hammering on clearly posted private property is wrong. There isn't a single sign that says anything about private property anywhere remotely near ship rock. If you spend life assuming that people are lying to you every time you are wrong, you aren't going to make many friends.

The Chief wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:condone:

1. Accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue.
2. Approve or sanction (something), esp. with reluctance.

Yes- That is exactly how I feel about it.

Respect for others and their property.

What in God's name ever happened to that very fundamental concept and principal?

I am then to safely assume that you would have absolutely no qualms if your house gets totally "tagged" and ransacked by individuals wishing to achieve their momentary goal.. correct?

No you would be not safe to assume that. My position is if you trespass the property should be left exactly as you find it, and that is what I have done when I tresspass. I said the bolt item was another issue- I am with you on that. But just the trespassing part, I do not think is anything to get up in arms over.

If my house gets tagged and ransacked, I have a big issue with that. But if someone trespasses, walks across my property, looks around, and leaves it as they found it, and I don't catch them, then it really isn't a big deal. If I catch them, they may have a small fine to pay, still not a big deal.

Chiefo, I'm sensing agitation.

When I'm agitated, I watch a fish video, like this.

I am curious what y'all think about a different situation: Devils Tower. The NPS owns it but the tribes believe it sacred and don't want it climbed. You can't buy them off with a permit. They do have religious ceremonies around the base.

Climb or no climb?

It isn't about being an expert in this case. Any old idiot can drive up to ship rock and notice that there aren't any signs about anything there. That is simple fact.

Selfish and totally disrespectful...

Edited for clarity.

Vitaliy M wrote:

Franky wrote:Well Chief, I was just there, and you are wrong. It is actually irrelevant because I am not claiming we didn't know that it was illegal, we knew. However, your hammering on clearly posted private property is wrong. There isn't a single sign that says anything about private property anywhere remotely near ship rock. If you spend life assuming that people are lying to you every time you are wrong, you aren't going to make many friends.

Don't worry about Chief. He is an expert on EVERY online thread he participates in. If you been there, he has been there more often. If you climbed it, he climbed it x10 more.

I think your friend's TR deserves to be on front page. It was YOUR choice to break rules. I don't support your choice, but still a good report.

Actually, Rick probably has climbed it 10x more often. But most of the things that Rick has climbed I don't think Franky would ever have the balls to do.

Funny. I respect the original author more then Franky. So far it appears he is taking the critisism like an adult, whereas Franky is trying to justify things. If you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar take your lumps, instead of covering your #ss. You sound like a politician.

Based on what I have read, I think The Chief and Chad actually agree to some extent on this issue, but with some points, not at all. I also think based on what Chad has posted, he wouldn't mind posting his address so when he's gone on his next trip, the rest of us can use his house to throw a party. When you get back Chad, the only way you'll know we were there is the "thank you" note we leave. We won't trash your home.

Whatever dude. I don't apologize for climbing that mountain or even putting bolts on the rap route. I am sorry that people took personal offense, but there isn't much I can do about that. I'm not trying to justify it, because it was justified. You all seemed to be interested in the reasoning, but if you are not, I'm happy to shut up. If you guys have good questions about why something was done, happy to answer them. If you want to get all self righteous, then to hell with you.

Usually The Chief is just a bit misinformed because he is so closed minded. In other cases he is just plain old wrong.