Any opinions, on whether a good fleece is better than a light softshell for a midlayer under a shell?

On Rainier summit day I wore a Columbia fleece under a First Ascent shell, and the fleece was way too bulky and hot.

Now I wonder if a breathable/light softshell would be better as a midlayer. Or just buy a better quality fleece, like the Patagonia R1 or one of the many Mammuts?

A softshell is supposed to be just that, a shell. I don't think they make very good mid-layers but I must admit I try to use my driclime windshirt as one once in a while. Never really works out that good though (Too hot). There are so many light weight 3/4 zip fleeces on the market these day or the R1 which is not as bulky.

I think no softshell can be as breathable as fleece.
The best option is to have a lighter and less bulky fleece to use under your shell.

Softshell as that: http://www.primaloft.com/en/performance/home.html

merino base layer

"soft shell"

Puffy

light weight emergency shell in the bottom of your pack, if you must

dress for speed and layer-over-the-top or "soft shell" philosophy (don't get caught needing to remove two pieces of clothing and then put one back on to shed a layer).

Tailor the weights of each to your needs. I like to pack a little less than I think I'll need for movement and a little more than I think I'll need for a puffy (insurance).

For most 3 season use, most people find the bells and whistles softshells like the Arcteryx Gamma MX to be way too hot/heavy. Something like the houdini or the ready mix is usually perfect if you're moving. On Rainier, I wore the marmot driclime windshirt alone and had a light shell and puffy in the pack. That's a pretty light system, but the lack of a base layer makes it unsuitable for most any summer outing even with the ability to roll up the sleeves and unzip the front. Going with a base layer and 4oz windshirt is more versatile. Maybe you throw in a Cap 4, R1 or get a heavier softshell if it's cold, but often I'll just throw on the light shell knowing I'll have to take it off relatively soon as I begin to warm up.

Puffy goes on pretty quickly at rests and on the summit. Shell goes on almost never (IME).

jrc wrote:For most 3 season use, most people find the bells and whistles softshells like the Arcteryx Gamma MX to be way too hot/heavy. Something like the houdini or the ready mix is usually perfect if you're moving. Puffy goes on pretty quickly at rests and on the summit. Shell goes on almost never (IME).

Good comments by jrc.

I use a three layer system the vast majority of time for winter and summer climbing. Changing the layers and their insulation value depending on the temps and level of activity. I have but now seldom use a soft shell, too heavy and too warm generally. And I want something that breathes better than the current offerings. R1 Hoody or something similar is a great base layer to start with in cool temps, then I use a wind layer and finally a puffy of some sort. Super simple system that works. The key to staying warm is staying dry in every situation.

More here.
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... ayers.html

mtvalley wrote:Any opinions, on whether a good fleece is better than a light softshell for a midlayer under a shell?

On Rainier summit day I wore a Columbia fleece under a First Ascent shell, and the fleece was way too bulky and hot.

Now I wonder if a breathable/light softshell would be better as a midlayer. Or just buy a better quality fleece, like the Patagonia R1 or one of the many Mammuts?

Do you sweat or are you always cold?

I sweat like a proverbial pig when I'm moving and I freeze when I'm stopped. I use light fleece for snow slogging and softshell combos for slower action when I'll be stopping and throwing on my belay parka.

I find that simple short live self experimentation -- take out a bunch of stuff and hike around in the winter -- has been the best help short of hard won experience.

moisture wicking base under fleece... add ventable softshell if it's cold or wet. compressed light down in the pack- have yet to wear it while actively climbing. compressed micro laminated nylon rain jacket at the bottom of the ruck.

hard shells are basically useless to me- i've yet to find anything that can breath fast enough to keep up with my moisture output. i'll take a synthetic insulated soft shell over an uninsulated hardshell- the one might be "warmer," but at least it'll breath/soak up some of my sweat and not leave it on my skin to freeze me when i stop.

Some good ideas, thanks.

At the very least I'm going to have to upgrade my fleece.

Anybody have experience with the new Mammut Eiswand? Looks cool but hesitant to spend so much on a fleece, without some good reviews.

I guess that I am the exception in still wearing and loving my OR hardshell. When that cold blast of wind is drowning out every other sound, nothing beats the warmth inside a hard shell. Anything less than windproof would just have all of the heat sucked away. Full length side zips give me all of the ventilation I need. If for whatever reason I am wearing a hardshell and moving a lot and sweating, I open up the sides and the front. I can even vent through the mesh pockets.

Being in the rain sucks regardless, but I have never been happy with the DWR on softshells. Maybe if you live on the west coast where it drizzles it, makes sense. But where I am, water resistant means it will soak up water like a sponge.

Here is my $0.02:

Stretch woven softshell jackets are a poor choice as a mid layer since they are not very warm for the weight and bulk. I find softshells to be restrictive movement wise when wearing more than a base layer under. A light fleece R1, R2, etc are warmers, lighter, more breathable and compressible in the pack. That said, I find fleece to be too warm except for mid winter (here in the PNW) and Alaska.

I also find stretch woven softshells to be a poor choice as a shell layer (except pants). A light weight hard shell offers better wind and moisture protection for less weight and bulk. I do like using my stretch woven softshell for lift service skiing, though, since it is so stylish. (My wife picked it out).

IMNSHO, a piece like the Marmot DriClime windshirt is perfect as a midlayer in cold weather and as an outer layer in cool weather. It is light, compressible, breathable, warm, wind and light precip proof. Additionally, the smooth nylon shell makes a sliding layer so other layers on top don't bind.

A typical layering system would be

Base layer (light weight, short sleeve poly tee in summer, long sleeve, midweight zip tee in winter)
DriClime windshirt
Hardshell (if very windy/snowy/rainy)
Hooded puffy over the top at rest breaks and cold summit days.
In winter I add a light weight, high lofting fleece over the windshirt (Patagonia R2)

I agree with JRC.

- i like a dri‑release long sleeve tee as a base layer followed by a power stretch hoodie like the cloudveil run don't walk. any hoodie is fine provided it’s highly breathable, has a really deep neck zipper and sleeves that can be pushed up easily to your elbows for venting. the third/additional layer is a wild things hooded windshirt in epic. with the hood and shoulders seam sealed it gives a great combination of wind and water resistance while maintaining breathability. in all but the worst conditions i leave the hardshell home and just use the windshirt in its place. with this combination it’s easy to stay cool while on the move in a variety of weather/temperature conditions. when stopped, throw the puffy of your choice on over everything and you stay warm.

Been using about the same system as Excitable Boy for a few years now..works well!!

Interested in switching it up, so I am trying this combo this weekend:

LS wool thermal
Patagonia Nano puff
Windproff softshell jacket for stops.

If too hot then I'll take off the Nano and/or softshell and move that way..just experimenting so not sure how this will work. Except, I do assume it will be on the warm side. High expected to 40f.

I also had been using ExcitableBoy's system for many years. Recently, however, I've modified it a bit by replacing the Marmot windshirt with a light fleece vest coupled with a very light, hooded windbreaker. The resulting combination is comparable to the windshirt in terms of weight, warmth and overall performance, but with the additional flexibility of being able to choose one of the two layers if desired. I've found this to be particularly useful for summer conditions above treeline, when the combination of a base layer and windshirt is often overkill, yet a light wind layer is still desirable.