The Obscurity Conundrum
The Obscurity Conundrum

The Obscurity Conundrum

Page Type Page Type: Article

To Post or Not To Post?

 

Peak 8466
Lots of people see this unnamed peak, though not from this angle.  Very few climb it.  It's one of my favorites.  Why, then, invite everyone to it?

 

That is the question.

Before I go on, let me state that what follows is based on personal feelings and judgments.  Although I am a site moderator, what I am going to talk about is not a new SP policy and is not under discussion as a new policy.  Also, I am not going to bring it up for discussion among the staff as a new site policy.

But please read with an open mind and consider this as something SP contributors might want to think about.

So...

I have deleted almost all of my pages for peaks that have no official names and no locally or historically accepted unofficial names as well.  By this, I mean the many "Point..." and "Peak..." pages I had posted, not peaks unofficially named for the benchmarks found on them.  In a few cases, I changed the page to a trip report or route or incorporated essential information into another page, and there are two over which I'm still pondering what to do, but most of the pages are gone. So are many of the pictures, though I left several behind if they were relevant to other pages.

With a few exceptions, the deleted pages were from the Calico Hills of Nevada's Red Rock Canyon (no great loss-- locals climb those peaks all the time, they are easily seen from the road, and anyone with decent route-finding skills will find his or her way up) and the wilderness areas of Montana and Wyoming.

Why have I done this, especially since I have long been among those who think SP's greatest value is as a source of information for obscure peaks and since I still am among those?

Reasons:

  • With very few exceptions, no one had signed the climber's logs, leading me to think few members were using the pages.
  • These pages had far fewer hits than did pages for named peaks in the same area written by me and other SP members, suggesting that few non-members were using the pages as well.
  • How many people are really putting something like "Point 8466, Rocky Mountain Front, Montana" into search engines, anyway?  
  • I suspect that most people interested in such peaks are less interested in others' beta and more interested in finding their own ways to the summits.
  • Finally, and most importantly, some of the peaks in question are among my all-time favorites, and I am a lover of obscure peaks for which there is little or no beta, so exactly why was I posting beta on those peaks?  Power Points?  Vanity?  Boredom?  To show off my pictures?  All I can say for sure to that is that I know I most certainly was not posting the beta out of a desire to invite the rest of the world to those summits.
Collectively, those pages took a lot of time to create, especially the ones for which I also added a route page or two (also deleted), so this was not an easy decision to make, but as time has passed since the deletions, I have come to feel better and better about what I did, especially in the cases of peaks whose summits had few or no traces of prior human visits.
 
Take, for example, the peak shown above, and also the one in this page's Primary Image.  The included caption expresses some thoughts about the first.  The second-- not visible from any roads, it truly is a wilderness gem.  As far as I know, the only trail with a view of it requires a long trip to get to that view.  For the most part, the peak is only visible from other obscure peaks and ridges.  Although it wasn't that difficult to climb it, I found no obvious signs of previous human visits, which does not prove no prior ascents but does suggest that very few ever go there, likely because it is unnamed and remote and reaching it requires a long drive with rugged sections and three stream crossings.
 
So why exactly do I want to trumpet these mountains' secrets to all the world?
 
---------------
 
Pages that are gone:
 
Absaroka Range, WY
  • "Steercalf Mountain" (Point 12,327)
  • Point 11,883
  • "Bear Creek Pass Peak" (Point 11,694)
Point 12,32712,327
Peak 11,88311,883
Point 11,69411,694

 

 
Beartooth Range, MT
  • "Little Thunder Mountain" (Point 10,583T)
(Note-- information for this peak still exists; I incorporated it into the Thunder Mountain page.)
 
Peak 10,583T, Little Thunder MountainLittle Thunder Mountain

 

 
Calico Hills-- Red Rock Canyon, NV
  • "West Calico Tank Peak" (Point 4850)
  • "Tinaja Peak" (Point 4760)
  • "Sandstone Quarry Peak" (Point 4708)
  • "Red Book Peak" (Point 4608)
West Calico Tank PeakWest Calico Tank Peak
Tinaja Peak from TurtleheadTinaja Peak-- left-hand formation in the foreground
Sandstone QuarrySandstone Quarry Peak-- point to the left
Point 4608Red Book Peak

 

 
Death Valley National Park, CA
  • "Leadfield Peak" 
Leadfield PeakLeadfield Peak

 

 
 
Gros Ventre Range, WY
  • Point 10,700 (noted in the Bonney Guide as "Terrace Peak" although it shouldn't be)
  • "Pillar Peak" (Point 10,405)
(Note-- information on these peaks still exists; I incorporated it into the Terrace Peak page.)
 
Point 10,70010,700
Points 10,405 and 10,285Pillar Peak

 

 
Madison Range, MT
  • "Jerome Rock Peak" (Point 10,175)
Alpine TarnPoint 10,175

 

 
Rocky Mountain Front, MT
  • "Headquarters Peak" (Point 8789)
  • "Hidden Lake Peak" (Point 8466)
  • "Blindhorse Peak" (Point 8295)
Point 87898789
Point 8466 and Our Lake8466
South Ridge8295

 

Sawtooth Range, ID
  • Point 9337
Point 93379337

 

---------------
 
Pages I'm still pondering over:
  • "Eagle Canyon Pinnacle" (San Rafael Swell, UT)
  • "Badlands Peak" (Death Valley NP)
Beauty Among the UglinessEagle Canyon Pinnacle
Badlands Peak, DawnBadlands Peak

 

Eagle Canyon Pinnacle is easily seen from I-70, from which it is little more than a stone's throw away, in Utah's San Rafael Swell.  Even though the name is something I made up and I haven't found any other climbing information about it on the Internet, posting a page on this easily visible and easily accessible formation is not exactly spilling the secrets of the wilderness.  Thus, I don't feel so conflicted about posting that page.
 
Deciding what to do about the Badlands Peak page involves factors that are almost identical.  Prominently visible from Zabriskie Point, probably the most popular roadside stop in Death Valley National Park after Badwater, Badlands Peak is hardly a prize beheld by only a few hardy backcountry travelers.  It's probably been photographed by millions of people.  However, it's been climbed by few (but there is a cairn at the summit), and climbing it from Zabriskie Point feels like a wilderness experience because it takes one into and through some rugged, spectacular desert terrain that most certainly will not appeal to most casual hikers even though the route is not very long (1.5-2 miles to the summit).
 
---------------
 
Again, I am not proposing a new site policy here.  Admittedly, I hope this essay will make some people who have posted pages like the ones I did take a closer look at why they have done so and whether it was a good thing to do.  But I am not shouting out that everyone should just delete all their pages for unnamed peaks.
 
In closing, I want to offer two apologies:
  • First, an apology to anyone who has been even partially motivated to post pages like the one I have deleted because I have helped set that precedent.  If you now feel burned by my about-face on an issue I once saw from the opposite side I do now, I apologize.
  • Second, an apology to anyone who has posted pages like the ones I have deleted and who feels that this essay devalues his or her efforts in creating those pages.  That is not my intention at all.  The pages on these kinds of peaks are among the best and most valuable on SP, and you have made these pages for relatively little recognition and return since the masses here tend to view and vote on the pages for popular peaks, even when the author has not climbed the peak.  I am simply questioning why we lovers of the obscure and the overlooked want to publicize these pristine places that inspire us so.
 
 
 
 


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KeithN

KeithN - May 25, 2013 12:53 pm - Hasn't voted

Finally

come over to the dark side have you? I agree with your assessment. Most of the folks on this site are interested in hiking, mountaineering and moderate alpine climbing - with a few notable exceptions. Those exceptions provide enough content of interest to the few among the main group that may be drawn to the more exclusive (in the sense of accessibility) types of mountain activities to satisfy the curiosity of those few and get them started on their chosen path, be it off-trail mountain travel, ice climbing, canyoneering or aid climbing. They can subsequently look elsewhere for in-depth information. To post that information here is a frustrating distraction for all involved, as the voting/summit log data would indicate.

andrew david

andrew david - May 26, 2013 12:26 am - Voted 10/10

Where draw the line?

A thought-provoking article, which is well-written. Where is the line drawn about what should or should not be here? An interesting extension of this article is why write about any spot? Why give away the secrets at all? Well, if you know of something great, then aren't you supposed to share it? Don't we want to? Posting a page for some difficult obscure little peak is not going to make people go out to it. Most mountain travelers and hikers want to hit famous spots, just like they want celebrity autographs. And many lose heart or stamina or confidence quickly when the trail peters out. But it is nice to be able to stumble across some cool pictures sometimes and then serendipitously learn a new spot to aim for some season. People do still have to bushwhack and walk the miles. An SP page won't do that for them.

Posting these pages provides information for those who know to run it down really. I was inspired to travel to Glacier National Park, the Mission Mountains, and the North Cascades by stumbling across this site and gaping at some great pictures. It is typically the first place I look for information on any area or mountain, because nearly everything is here. I might never have thought to pick up a guide book for GNP and have thus never seen the place.

The exact opposite argument could also be made from yours: why post pages for peaks that are not obscure? Is it not vanity to tell the Internet world that there is a peak named Mount Shasta, for instance, and that it is big, and you can walk to the top of it? And that there are trailheads and roads leading right up to it, and ski locations? There are many books out there with the information already, and anyone who drives through California will notice Mount Shasta. So perhaps it is only vanity to post any page that many others could post. I often think of adding some trip report and then stop myself because what value does it really bring if its a common locale? I tell myself to find something better to do. But posting it might inspire someone, might make someone say, hmm, yes, I should go to that lake- I've always meant to.

Anyway, I don't have any real conclusion drawn yet. I can see it both ways. The site is sprawling and it does feel there are many authors just out to create as many pages as possible. But having a page for Point 8867 does not jam up the server or the search utilities if someone types in "Mount Shasta".

I come to Summitpost and run searches often starting with some general area or range, then research a specific peak, but then open up my searches to see what I find that I don't know about- looking through galleries and other pages by the same poster, peaks that look cool, have fun routes, or which might make good backup plans if the weather turns or my legs aren't under me on a given day. Stuff you can only pick up from lots of failed trips or from insiders.

People choose their own levels of information in this day and age. An SP page is easy to find, and if more info is needed, people can buy a book, or read trip reports, or call the ranger station. I read these pages weeks ahead but go in with little but basic map, a vague recollection of what others said on SP and compass, food, and bivy sack. I end up lost often enough and have the same kind of sweaty, frustrating experience the original explorers did. I like it that way- sort of- in hindsight. But I would not know where to go in the first place without Summitpost. If I have limited time, I want to get lost in the best possible places. Of course, there are those who have internet printouts counting out the footsteps for them, and GPS devices, and elevation readers, with highlighted routes in red arrows on reference photos, compass bearings, and more- they're usually more lost than me. But if that's the experience they like and are comfortable with, then that's a thrill for them I'm sure.

I appreciate whatever pages are up, as long as they are decent and accurate. No one forces me to read them. And the pages I post it feels like far too few read it. "Oh my wit and time is lost" I think. But it is nice to discover some things for oneself too. Maybe obscure peaks like those you mention are better just alluded to in Galleries and on the pages of neighboring peaks. Then people have to invent their own route, but the ambitious will know its worth their while to try. In conclusion, I ramble too much.

dan2see

dan2see - May 28, 2013 2:06 am - Hasn't voted

Remove those peaks!

Good for you, Bob!
It's good that you posted all that info.
It's good that you removed them, too!
But we don't really need your justification. It's your choice, and you did a great job, both ways.

Deltaoperator17

Deltaoperator17 - May 28, 2013 10:52 am - Hasn't voted

The Best Mountain Database..

Bob,

No matter how little something is used or read, SP is still one of the largest and most looked at sites for mountain beta. Everyone who pulls up Google in search of an obscure mountain range area gets directed to SP.

There is nothing wrong with great pictures, remember "SummitPorn"? Yes, I can speak for myself and say I love gazing at the pictures on SP despite my ability or lack of to do the route or peak.

Whether you are a single contributor or a massive downloader of beta, it’s all very important to the foundation of SummitPost.

I think you need to put them back up. Summitpost is still a very viable, informative and most comprehensive site of its kind.

My two pennies worth.

Steve

hgrapid

hgrapid - May 28, 2013 12:16 pm - Hasn't voted

I like mapping the mountains

I often think when I see a summit in the distance - "That looks cool. How do I get there?" Then I explore the area and figure it out. I like mapping these mountains that are worthy destinations and sharing that with people so they can enjoy it as well. Case in point - Peak 8738 - East Tahoe. This is obscure because nobody knows it is there. They don't visit it. It is overshadowed by other peaks and landmarks in the area. But the summit view is AWESOME! This is a hidden gem that deserves attention because otherwise nobody would get to enjoy it. It provides opportunities to direct traffic elsewhere than just the big name peaks. I even wrote an article about it published in the Galena Times, which is delivered to ~5,000 homes in the local area. I agree with Bob that not every peak deserves a page. However, the SP voters can judge us on the merits of each page we submit. Bob has contributed wonderful things to SP and I do not intend to criticize him as he does not criticize those of us who post some lesser known peaks. I have been mapping the Reno area peaks which had virtually no information before I moved there. Many deserve pages. Some I can understand people questioning. But there are many fun places, and they are tricky to figure out the best routes. So I posted them with the hopes this will encourage recreation in Reno and I can share these with my hiking friends. I think what Bob is saying is that each SP member can decide what works best for them and what they wish to share, and he decided to remove some of his. But I would love him to put them back up if he ever wishes to, and I hope he backed them up.

MoapaPk

MoapaPk - May 29, 2013 6:53 pm - Voted 10/10

Yes, a conundrum

In the last few years, I've had several people thank me for direction I posted on summitpost-- and those folks never signed the logs, or voted on the pages. Perhaps they, too, want to keep the beauty of the peaks on the down-low, and will let the manic peak-baggers have their own territory.

Years ago, a fellow (not you!) asked me for information about a route to an obscure peak. I asked him to keep the info on the down-low, and after helping him through three attempts, he finally made the peak... and immediately published the directions on summitpost.

There was probably no real tie, but 2 weeks after I sent you the directions to the white gully route on Red Cap (which you then put on SP), I found that route marked by paint, and there was extensive graffiti on top. That gave me pause; was I to blame?

But all that has been overwhelmed by two pehnomena: 1) the rise of meetup groups, always hungry for new trips, and 2) a local author who has started a for-a-fee peak club. People have swelled the ranks, and are using those little peaks as athletic challenges, swamping any effect you or I might have had.

Now I say: give them the now-crowded peaks-- they can do little damage on the rock. I've learned that the vast majority of this new set of competitive peak-baggers is just unable to figure out directions to most obscure peaks from maps, gps files, or anything other than following the heels of those immediately in front of them. And because they are obsessed with lists, they will ignore better, harder peaks that are 1 mile away, if those peaks are not on the list.

Summitpost is still for people who can think, a declining portion of peak-baggers.

I have a lot of obscure peaks that I am happy to share with the sincere, and those folks contact me off-line. If I see ambiguous directions to established peaks (say DPS summits) I may update those via SP. But a lot of places I go are too fragile to support hordes, and will never appear anywhere other than my website (if there).

Snidely Whiplash

Snidely Whiplash - Jun 3, 2013 12:13 am - Voted 10/10

Worth a Discussion

This is an idea that's at least worth a discussion. Now, from the other side, the reason I post some officially unnamed peaks is that I find that many of these "unofficial" peaks are more deserving of names than many nearby peaks that do have names. I realize that that is a subjective judgment, but at least in Washington, it's amazing how many worthy peaks go nameless, while many insignificant knobs in Colorado get a name. Mt. Orton in RMNP is nothing more than a pile of rocks on a ridge top. And on the other side, Bills Peak in Washington. I can't believe that this thing is not officially named, but the round little hill next to it, Iron Peak, has a name. I think some people just lobbied more successfully for a particular point to have a name. Doesn't mean it's a worthier or loftier summit.

mvs

mvs - Jan 11, 2014 2:25 pm - Hasn't voted

late to this but nice article

Hi, thanks for posting this Bob. For a long time, I was excited about "comprehensiveness," that is, a vision of the future where all the information about obscure peaks, routes, valleys would find their way to a single home on the web (like SP). But this desire led me into conflict with the site. For example, I wanted wikis to better secure the information, easy-to-use bulk data handling to speed the information in.

Being forced to give up on an unrealistic goal, I began to question why a comprehensive reference seemed so important. I returned to my own behavior going to mountains. More and more, I don't scour the web ahead of time looking for info. I don't mind making do with a xeroxed map, or a few lines in a foreign language and a vague topo.

Lately, I see the reports I've done, and others have taken this much further...the idea that there should be a dozen diagrams and a hundred photos to take away any mystery.

I concluded that I made my diagrams not to really help anyone, but just because I enjoyed making them. Or at least, there was a publicly stated reason but a sub rosa private reason.

Looking back at 15 wonderful years of mountaineering, the greatest "gems" are the ones with the least information.

Therefore, I support your decision Bob, I think it's a good one that comes from a mature love of the hills, and a respect for others in that you won't deny them adventure by serving as their one-stop-shop for adventure-free beta.

One shouldn't go to extremes. Post if you like, delete your work if you like. You wouldn't have gained this valuable perspective if you hadn't gone overboard in one way or another. SP is a positive thing, and a living thing too. Here we see a mountaineer learning in real time with it. +1. :)

Bob Sihler

Bob Sihler - Jan 14, 2014 9:58 am - Hasn't voted

Re: late to this but nice article

Thanks, Michael, and welcome back; we've missed your voice and your stories here, and I'm looking forward to setting aside some time today to read your new trip report. The pictures alone are stunning.

I agree with you that the best gems are the ones with the least information, and I agree as well about the idea of posting simply for the pleasure of creating pages. That's exactly why I deleted my pages for some of the unknown wonders.

mvs

mvs - Jan 16, 2014 5:11 pm - Hasn't voted

Re: late to this but nice article

Appreciated Bob! I go away and return, SummitPost does feel like home :). In terms of online data about a peak, my favorite things are usually little bits of trivia that are surprising, or reveal some cultural heritage. Steph Abegg's Picket Range has some of that in between the top notch beta...little stories or anecdotes that fire the imagination...all the more so for being fragmentary.

Climbing a mountain is answering a question you've posed to yourself. It's nice when our online efforts make the question richer in the mind of the (would be) climber. If we play our cards right, we'll add dimensionality to the experience rather than eliminating all the variables. (Of course, other times simple directions to a damn trailhead are much appreciated, so take my flight of fancy with several salty grains!)

Keep on wanderin'...

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