A well written and thought out article; thanks for sharing. I only have two comments. One, the safety and required equipment has already been well noted and I agree. Your group was one mistake away from a messy SAR event. Two, set the ground rules in the beginning of the trip. Don't assume everyone thinks and acts like you think they should. I made this mistake once on a climb only to realize later it was my responsibility as the climbing leader to brief and explain what I expected out of my ropemates. Thankfully nothing bad happened but the potential was there and that made me mad and uncomfortable. I owned most of that from not setting expectations. Don't just tell people what they are going to do as adults have a hard time with this approach. Explain why it makes sense. In your situation not having the proper safety equipment for that route should of stopped most, if not all, from going that way. Cheers!
Thanks for your considered comments Haliku, you and I are in agreement on the major points that I have tried to make in this article. It is rather strange that we both had to learn this lesson by experience, rather than from a written source. As a group leader, it is a damn frustrating position to be in, and hence my reasoning for sharing.
Tim
I agree that we (leaders of wilderness trips) too often learn our lessons by experience rather than reading. But what would one read to learn about wilderness leadership? I can suggest Arlene Blum's "Breaking Trail" for informative anecdotes, but can you head over to your local outdoor retailer and pick up something like "25 rules for outdoor leaders?" I'd be interested in useful guides folks have read. And if there's not much out there, let's write the darned book and let out combined wisdom save a few future leaders.
Perhaps you have touched on an idea that would fit into a "custom object" category, a series of writings grouped together dealing with specific leadership issues.
Cheers;
Tim
That sounds like a good idea to me. How do other folks feel about it? Would you be interested in posting to a category like that, with a goal of refining some principles of leading mountain trips? Or perhaps you know of books or articles people have already written?
Something to bear in mind is how very, very, very many mountain / adventure books in the last 10 years (since Into Thin Air, perhaps?) have tried to explore how these disasters occur, but I can't think of any that have proposed general principles for us to follow.
Anyway, before I create a forum to discuss this, help me understand if I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
I think it is an idea that would fit nicely on Summitpost. Perhaps there are other compendiums of leadership principals, I am sure in fact that West Point has volumes on this topic. "The Freedom of the Hills" has a very comprehensive chapter [21] on the issue If we can create something of quality, then we will only enhance the value of Summitpost. A leadership manual written by and from the experience of summitpost members could give rise to another reason why SP should be one of the primary resources people should check when they have questions on any thing mountain or climbing related.
Agree that "Freedom of the Hills" has good chapter.
Scouting also has a lot of material on how to lead groups--both from the standpoint of scouts/venturers and for group leaders. The best leader I know comes from a Scouting background. He's also very self-critical of his actions, even on successful trips, and dissects his decisions.
Thanks for your comments Arthur, I had not thought of the Scouts as a resource, but I suppose that by the time one reaches Eagle, there has been a considerable amount of leadership instruction. Too bad I did not stick past the Webelo level.
Cheers;
Tim
Did not read all the comments, BUT a few critical errors were made
1. Always bring a helmet in an Alpine environment, regardless of the rooute
2. Always bring a rope (you could have hip belayed down the crux 5.2 down-climb.
3. If you are the LEAD, be the lead.
Just kidding.
It is so hard to try and "lead" people in the mountains. I have had a few experiences with groups and leadership problems and unfortunately unless there is a clear relationship right off - one where all have bought into who is leader and their expertise and knowledge - then things can go wrong. Especially for people who are not the captain bligh personality and just expect people to behave. It sounds like it was a very dangerous situation that Maverick put the group into and it is unfortunate that the group didn't have the guts to listen to you. I think you did very well and you have way more patience than I. So
good job and kudos to you.
Kathie
I was one of the climbers that took part of the Grey Wolf climb on Aug 18th. I have led about five climbs with this organization and have participated on many more as a climbing participant. I will make some comments regarding the climb and my honest reflections. Hopefully I will not make too many people mad but if toes are stepped on, so be it.
First I want to thank both co-leaders for taking on the responsibility of leading such a large group. Thank God eight cancelled or it would have been a real zoo. I could tell that Tim had the experience to do a good job of leading but that Vernon was looked on by the participants as the leader. A clear communication to the group was not made as far as who was to call the shots.
The climb to the summit was done well and the group stayed in contact fairly well through out the climb. I was the second one through the crux so maybe you remember me. I have no experience on technical climbing and thought that the crux was the toughest class 4 that I have ever done, but did not have any problems with that part of the climb.
As we were departing the summit, there was talk of the gully route being a way out that could make things easier. Somehow, the feeling by some of those in front was that permission was given to see if that route was a go. My opinion of the gully was that we should stay on a known route but since I was not the coordinator, I did not interfere with the one who descended the gully, or discuss the decision with the leaders. After the decision was made to stick together, I descended the gully and was the second one down. I was the first one to go down the snow field and ended up loosing my footing and sliding into the rocks. After that event, I advised caution to those who followed and most used ski poles to help in descending the snow field. I mentioned numerous times to those who were out in front that the rest of the group was not going to like what was coming up. The comment that was made was that” we had permission”. I stayed at the snow field to make sure that those who had not yet descended knew that some caution was needed in the decent. I stayed at the snow field until all had descended and then proceeding down with the group. After permission was given to leave, I descended at a fast pace and was out to the parking area first. I then left for home.
My first lead climb with this group was Swan Peak. Since these climbs are somewhat social in nature, I did not cull any of the participants. During that climb, a participant decided to return to the vehicles without notifying me. That individual will never be allowed on a climb with me again. If this is your first time as a leader with this group, I hope you chalk it up as a learning event. As leaders, we can pick and choose who we bring along on these climbs.
In conclusion, I would like to say that I do not think that this was a mutiny but a lack of communication. I also hope that you pass on your thoughts and frustrations to the board of directors of this group. All leaders, whether first timers or experienced ones, need to be reminded that they set the rules for the climb. Any participant who chooses to disregard the directions of the coordinator needs to be identified so that others may cull him or her from their participant list. Thanks again for taking the time to lead us on a beautiful climb. Please do not let one bad day influence your future decisions on leading climbs with this group.
Thank you toggenberg for your important comments. I am certain that there are 12 impressions of what transpired, and I sincerely appreciate you sharing your perspective.
I have been in close contact with the directors of the climbing society, and they have taken an active interest in what transpired.
I mentioned to the directors that to a person, I found each member on our climb to be interesting and very friendly, and that I was certain that to a person each would have wished for a different ending to the day.
Sincerely;
Tim
Tim, I agree with everyone that you're too hard on yourself. I've led a number of climbs (large & small) as well as participated in those where I was not the lead climber. Haliku & dscharfman hit it on the spot: establish the ground rules and protocols in advance -- not at the trailhead when everyone is stoked about getting to the destination (all they will hear is "blah-blah-blah!"), but do so perhaps over a get-together event before the actual climb. In fact, I'm hosting one in late September for our mid-October trip to the Cascades.
In addition, I would add (something you had mentioned) a deputy, not in terms of doing administrative tasks but actively participate in the actual climb decisions. If I'm the lead climber, the deputy is ALWAYS the last person who brings up the rear because not everyone moves at the same pace. We'd never deviate from our set trail unless something extraordinary happens.
One thing I wouldn't want in a leader is having his mind clouded with anger, concerns, and frustration. Descending an unknown route with a clouded mind is quite dangerous. I'm glad you and the others made it out fine. I think you're a great in sharing this experience and despite the fact that I'm an Alpha, I've been with group leaders who were not and they were great at their tasks.
I also think it would be a lost if you follow your own advice: "From here on out, I will stick to climbing with people and partners that I know and trust." A leader who recognizes his/her short-comings and who has encountered the mistakes of others is one with gained experience. I rather follow this leader than one who always boasts about his/her success record.
Climb on and Climb with care!
Knight
--
Follow Your Path! Cross ALL Boundaries!! AND RIDE THE EARTH!!!
Thank You Aspen for your considerate remarks, while I have practiced many of your suggestions on big mountain trips that I have led [ie. Mt Rainier, Mt. Hood,& Mt. Joffree]I did not think it necessary for this climb, as it was a simple scramble route. There in lies one of my errors; underestimating the difficulty the day for some of the other members of our group. I have come to a "live and learn" position in my analysis, aided by the many honest comments.
Cheers;
Tim
This is an interesting string of comments, and I think this is an excellent forum to reflect and get feedback. I agree with the comments that as Maverick was being watched checking out the gully, those watching (seems to have been the whole group) should have had a discussion about the risks and benefits of going off route.
The part that I did not see highlighted in most comments (on the contrary, many affirmed the decision to go with the group), is that it is the responsibility of an experienced leader to clearly identify the dangers and steer the group away from them.
I think that making a decision that going down the gully is dangerous, communicating it to the group, and clearly stating that the leader is going down as planned with anyone that chooses to follow would have made all of the difference. I doubt that even Maverick would have kept going (with or without Goose).
Thank you for the comment on this article dkozjsimon. I fully agree that this has been an amazing discussion, and one that I have learned a lot from. It is gratifying that my experience has garnered so much response, and resulted in such a frank discussion about the pit falls of leadership. If sharing this experience with this community of climbers saves any one else from a similar fate, then it will have proved worthwhile.
Cheers;
Tim
I feel like three people in a team is tops. These big groups put everyone in more danger. There is nothing I hate more than being out somewhere and coming up on an entourage of climbers. It sounds like you've learned your lesson.
Thanks M@ for the comment, while I tend to agree about group size, I disagree that large groups put everyone in more danger. On my profile page I write that I enjoy the fellowship of great partners on great mountains. Club and Societies are great places to meet climbing partners, and like minded friends. I sincerely hope that one of the groups I have led have not ruined one of your outings.
The times I have hiked with very large groups such as on this Gray Wolf climb have tended to be frustrating. That was one of the strange this about this trip, the climbing was uneventful and quite fun, everybody commented on the summit what a great route it was!
Then it all fell apart on the descent. Go figure, and yes I have learned many valuable lessons.
For writing about this subject. I agree you are too hard on yourself, but the fact that you are willing to think hard about it, draw conclusions and share them indicate your very solid leadership skills.
Once I was in the position of one of the followers of Maverick. The older experienced guy cautioned us not to descend the gully. Two didn't listen, and I stuck with the experienced guy, partly because I could barely keep up with the other two, but also finally I was beginning to suspect the experienced guy was right.
Me and the experienced guy slept in our beds that night. The two Mavericks spent a shivery night at a waterfall dropoff.
Haliku - Aug 26, 2008 11:24 am - Voted 10/10
Ground rulesA well written and thought out article; thanks for sharing. I only have two comments. One, the safety and required equipment has already been well noted and I agree. Your group was one mistake away from a messy SAR event. Two, set the ground rules in the beginning of the trip. Don't assume everyone thinks and acts like you think they should. I made this mistake once on a climb only to realize later it was my responsibility as the climbing leader to brief and explain what I expected out of my ropemates. Thankfully nothing bad happened but the potential was there and that made me mad and uncomfortable. I owned most of that from not setting expectations. Don't just tell people what they are going to do as adults have a hard time with this approach. Explain why it makes sense. In your situation not having the proper safety equipment for that route should of stopped most, if not all, from going that way. Cheers!
T Sharp - Aug 26, 2008 12:16 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Ground rulesThanks for your considered comments Haliku, you and I are in agreement on the major points that I have tried to make in this article. It is rather strange that we both had to learn this lesson by experience, rather than from a written source. As a group leader, it is a damn frustrating position to be in, and hence my reasoning for sharing.
Tim
dscharfman - Aug 26, 2008 11:55 pm - Voted 9/10
Re: Ground rulesI agree that we (leaders of wilderness trips) too often learn our lessons by experience rather than reading. But what would one read to learn about wilderness leadership? I can suggest Arlene Blum's "Breaking Trail" for informative anecdotes, but can you head over to your local outdoor retailer and pick up something like "25 rules for outdoor leaders?" I'd be interested in useful guides folks have read. And if there's not much out there, let's write the darned book and let out combined wisdom save a few future leaders.
T Sharp - Aug 27, 2008 1:09 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Ground rulesPerhaps you have touched on an idea that would fit into a "custom object" category, a series of writings grouped together dealing with specific leadership issues.
Cheers;
Tim
dscharfman - Aug 27, 2008 11:01 pm - Voted 9/10
Learning to leadThat sounds like a good idea to me. How do other folks feel about it? Would you be interested in posting to a category like that, with a goal of refining some principles of leading mountain trips? Or perhaps you know of books or articles people have already written?
Something to bear in mind is how very, very, very many mountain / adventure books in the last 10 years (since Into Thin Air, perhaps?) have tried to explore how these disasters occur, but I can't think of any that have proposed general principles for us to follow.
Anyway, before I create a forum to discuss this, help me understand if I'm trying to reinvent the wheel.
T Sharp - Aug 27, 2008 11:43 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Learning to leadI think it is an idea that would fit nicely on Summitpost. Perhaps there are other compendiums of leadership principals, I am sure in fact that West Point has volumes on this topic. "The Freedom of the Hills" has a very comprehensive chapter [21] on the issue If we can create something of quality, then we will only enhance the value of Summitpost. A leadership manual written by and from the experience of summitpost members could give rise to another reason why SP should be one of the primary resources people should check when they have questions on any thing mountain or climbing related.
Arthur Digbee - Aug 28, 2008 4:44 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Learning to leadAgree that "Freedom of the Hills" has good chapter.
Scouting also has a lot of material on how to lead groups--both from the standpoint of scouts/venturers and for group leaders. The best leader I know comes from a Scouting background. He's also very self-critical of his actions, even on successful trips, and dissects his decisions.
Which is exactly what you've done here. Kudos.
T Sharp - Aug 29, 2008 1:36 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Learning to leadThanks for your comments Arthur, I had not thought of the Scouts as a resource, but I suppose that by the time one reaches Eagle, there has been a considerable amount of leadership instruction. Too bad I did not stick past the Webelo level.
Cheers;
Tim
kpthomson - Aug 27, 2008 2:25 pm - Hasn't voted
BePreparedDid not read all the comments, BUT a few critical errors were made
1. Always bring a helmet in an Alpine environment, regardless of the rooute
2. Always bring a rope (you could have hip belayed down the crux 5.2 down-climb.
3. If you are the LEAD, be the lead.
klwagar - Aug 28, 2008 4:32 pm - Voted 10/10
Dear Capt BlighJust kidding.
It is so hard to try and "lead" people in the mountains. I have had a few experiences with groups and leadership problems and unfortunately unless there is a clear relationship right off - one where all have bought into who is leader and their expertise and knowledge - then things can go wrong. Especially for people who are not the captain bligh personality and just expect people to behave. It sounds like it was a very dangerous situation that Maverick put the group into and it is unfortunate that the group didn't have the guts to listen to you. I think you did very well and you have way more patience than I. So
good job and kudos to you.
Kathie
T Sharp - Aug 28, 2008 11:59 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Dear Capt BlighThanks for your considered comments and your sense of humor Kathie.
Any body seen a white whale?
Cheers;
Tim
edit for historical accuracy: Any body seen the Bounty?
toggenberg - Aug 28, 2008 10:54 pm - Hasn't voted
Grey Wolf ClimbI was one of the climbers that took part of the Grey Wolf climb on Aug 18th. I have led about five climbs with this organization and have participated on many more as a climbing participant. I will make some comments regarding the climb and my honest reflections. Hopefully I will not make too many people mad but if toes are stepped on, so be it.
First I want to thank both co-leaders for taking on the responsibility of leading such a large group. Thank God eight cancelled or it would have been a real zoo. I could tell that Tim had the experience to do a good job of leading but that Vernon was looked on by the participants as the leader. A clear communication to the group was not made as far as who was to call the shots.
The climb to the summit was done well and the group stayed in contact fairly well through out the climb. I was the second one through the crux so maybe you remember me. I have no experience on technical climbing and thought that the crux was the toughest class 4 that I have ever done, but did not have any problems with that part of the climb.
As we were departing the summit, there was talk of the gully route being a way out that could make things easier. Somehow, the feeling by some of those in front was that permission was given to see if that route was a go. My opinion of the gully was that we should stay on a known route but since I was not the coordinator, I did not interfere with the one who descended the gully, or discuss the decision with the leaders. After the decision was made to stick together, I descended the gully and was the second one down. I was the first one to go down the snow field and ended up loosing my footing and sliding into the rocks. After that event, I advised caution to those who followed and most used ski poles to help in descending the snow field. I mentioned numerous times to those who were out in front that the rest of the group was not going to like what was coming up. The comment that was made was that” we had permission”. I stayed at the snow field to make sure that those who had not yet descended knew that some caution was needed in the decent. I stayed at the snow field until all had descended and then proceeding down with the group. After permission was given to leave, I descended at a fast pace and was out to the parking area first. I then left for home.
My first lead climb with this group was Swan Peak. Since these climbs are somewhat social in nature, I did not cull any of the participants. During that climb, a participant decided to return to the vehicles without notifying me. That individual will never be allowed on a climb with me again. If this is your first time as a leader with this group, I hope you chalk it up as a learning event. As leaders, we can pick and choose who we bring along on these climbs.
In conclusion, I would like to say that I do not think that this was a mutiny but a lack of communication. I also hope that you pass on your thoughts and frustrations to the board of directors of this group. All leaders, whether first timers or experienced ones, need to be reminded that they set the rules for the climb. Any participant who chooses to disregard the directions of the coordinator needs to be identified so that others may cull him or her from their participant list. Thanks again for taking the time to lead us on a beautiful climb. Please do not let one bad day influence your future decisions on leading climbs with this group.
T Sharp - Aug 29, 2008 1:30 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Grey Wolf ClimbThank you toggenberg for your important comments. I am certain that there are 12 impressions of what transpired, and I sincerely appreciate you sharing your perspective.
I have been in close contact with the directors of the climbing society, and they have taken an active interest in what transpired.
I mentioned to the directors that to a person, I found each member on our climb to be interesting and very friendly, and that I was certain that to a person each would have wished for a different ending to the day.
Sincerely;
Tim
Aspen - Aug 29, 2008 1:23 pm - Voted 10/10
The Noticeable NodTim, I agree with everyone that you're too hard on yourself. I've led a number of climbs (large & small) as well as participated in those where I was not the lead climber. Haliku & dscharfman hit it on the spot: establish the ground rules and protocols in advance -- not at the trailhead when everyone is stoked about getting to the destination (all they will hear is "blah-blah-blah!"), but do so perhaps over a get-together event before the actual climb. In fact, I'm hosting one in late September for our mid-October trip to the Cascades.
In addition, I would add (something you had mentioned) a deputy, not in terms of doing administrative tasks but actively participate in the actual climb decisions. If I'm the lead climber, the deputy is ALWAYS the last person who brings up the rear because not everyone moves at the same pace. We'd never deviate from our set trail unless something extraordinary happens.
One thing I wouldn't want in a leader is having his mind clouded with anger, concerns, and frustration. Descending an unknown route with a clouded mind is quite dangerous. I'm glad you and the others made it out fine. I think you're a great in sharing this experience and despite the fact that I'm an Alpha, I've been with group leaders who were not and they were great at their tasks.
I also think it would be a lost if you follow your own advice: "From here on out, I will stick to climbing with people and partners that I know and trust." A leader who recognizes his/her short-comings and who has encountered the mistakes of others is one with gained experience. I rather follow this leader than one who always boasts about his/her success record.
Climb on and Climb with care!
Knight
--
Follow Your Path! Cross ALL Boundaries!! AND RIDE THE EARTH!!!
T Sharp - Aug 30, 2008 1:48 am - Hasn't voted
Re: The Noticeable NodThank You Aspen for your considerate remarks, while I have practiced many of your suggestions on big mountain trips that I have led [ie. Mt Rainier, Mt. Hood,& Mt. Joffree]I did not think it necessary for this climb, as it was a simple scramble route. There in lies one of my errors; underestimating the difficulty the day for some of the other members of our group. I have come to a "live and learn" position in my analysis, aided by the many honest comments.
Cheers;
Tim
dkozjsimon - Aug 29, 2008 2:29 pm - Voted 10/10
Staying clear of danger highlightedThis is an interesting string of comments, and I think this is an excellent forum to reflect and get feedback. I agree with the comments that as Maverick was being watched checking out the gully, those watching (seems to have been the whole group) should have had a discussion about the risks and benefits of going off route.
The part that I did not see highlighted in most comments (on the contrary, many affirmed the decision to go with the group), is that it is the responsibility of an experienced leader to clearly identify the dangers and steer the group away from them.
I think that making a decision that going down the gully is dangerous, communicating it to the group, and clearly stating that the leader is going down as planned with anyone that chooses to follow would have made all of the difference. I doubt that even Maverick would have kept going (with or without Goose).
Thanks for sharing your experience, T Sharp!
T Sharp - Aug 30, 2008 2:03 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Staying clear of danger highlightedThank you for the comment on this article dkozjsimon. I fully agree that this has been an amazing discussion, and one that I have learned a lot from. It is gratifying that my experience has garnered so much response, and resulted in such a frank discussion about the pit falls of leadership. If sharing this experience with this community of climbers saves any one else from a similar fate, then it will have proved worthwhile.
Cheers;
Tim
M@ - Aug 30, 2008 12:39 pm - Voted 10/10
Three is enough.I feel like three people in a team is tops. These big groups put everyone in more danger. There is nothing I hate more than being out somewhere and coming up on an entourage of climbers. It sounds like you've learned your lesson.
T Sharp - Aug 30, 2008 1:09 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Three is enough.Thanks M@ for the comment, while I tend to agree about group size, I disagree that large groups put everyone in more danger. On my profile page I write that I enjoy the fellowship of great partners on great mountains. Club and Societies are great places to meet climbing partners, and like minded friends. I sincerely hope that one of the groups I have led have not ruined one of your outings.
The times I have hiked with very large groups such as on this Gray Wolf climb have tended to be frustrating. That was one of the strange this about this trip, the climbing was uneventful and quite fun, everybody commented on the summit what a great route it was!
Then it all fell apart on the descent. Go figure, and yes I have learned many valuable lessons.
mvs - Aug 31, 2008 3:50 pm - Voted 10/10
thanksFor writing about this subject. I agree you are too hard on yourself, but the fact that you are willing to think hard about it, draw conclusions and share them indicate your very solid leadership skills.
Once I was in the position of one of the followers of Maverick. The older experienced guy cautioned us not to descend the gully. Two didn't listen, and I stuck with the experienced guy, partly because I could barely keep up with the other two, but also finally I was beginning to suspect the experienced guy was right.
Me and the experienced guy slept in our beds that night. The two Mavericks spent a shivery night at a waterfall dropoff.