I appreciate your enlightened comments mvs. Descending unknown couloirs is about as big a gamble as a mountaineer or peak bagger can take.
Sometimes a group gets lucky and there is a way down, like what happened with us.
Cheers;
Tim
Tim,
Thank you for a thought provoking article. I am sure many readers experienced similar situations leading a heterogeneous group and faced similar challenges. My experience is with mush less dangeorous hikes that the one you described but here are my thoughts anyway.
I believe that the leader is responsible for those in the group that follow his or her leadership; everybody is, of course, free to leave the group but they do that at their own risk. The difficult part emotionally is not to be sidetracked by worries about the safety of the renegades but stay focused on the safety of loyalists.
Last but not least, I would say you are a good leader as evidenced by your care and effort to improve. I hope you will continue leading many climbs and hikes inthe future.
Thank you Neven for your kind and perceptive comments. I was difficult emotionally for some in the group to reject the set route. My decision not to split up the group was colored by that fact.
Cheers;
Tim
first of all, the english teacher in me wants to thank you for this well written, guileless, and perceptive article on group leadership. i strongly agree with thephotohiker in that the alpha male (or female!) figure need not "bite" or strong arm his or her parishioners into militeristic submission. this should especially be the case when a group of (theoretically) capable adults sign up for an organized climb led by an experienced climber familiar with the route.
also in a group of capable adults its easy to assume that everyone would have the same climbing ethics on a group outing (ie respect for the leaders and group safety). one of the things that i've learned from working with high school students (and perhaps adults are no different as people are people) is to never assume anything no matter how obvious it might seem or how large of a majority in the group seem to demonstrate an understanding of what is about to take place.
when going into a new classroom i found i have much more success when i outline what i'm teaching, why i'm teaching it, what students can expect from me, and what i expect from them before starting any actual lessons. prior to reading your article i don't think i would have thought a debriefing on expectations would have been necessary for a group like yours, though in retrospect it may have elimated problems such as deciding if and when you needed to yell or how hard of a punch maverick's nose would have required to punish his poor choice and re-establish authority.
in maverick's defense (and as i don't think has yet been mentioned in this discussion), he did ask permission (which was granted) from the coleader in regard to checking out the couloir. it was the coleader's assumption (and it seems the impression maverick gave him and others) that this would be a scouting descent. however, maverick evidently figured if it was a go then it was a go and it seems the next thing you knew, they were gone. i don't think you need to fire yourself from leading large groups (though if you're disillusioned enough to never desire to lead one again i can certainly understand). additionally as a fledgling (becoming less of a fledgling) climber, i too have trusted and continue to trust you above all others.
the mutiny on gray wolf peak is a valuable learning experience for all who lead and participate in the climbing community. participating climbers as well as leaders are responsible for the safety of the group. in a case like this what was safe for the group was staying on the planned route and letting the leaders lead. in the future, i would advise establishing clear route and safety expectations prior to the climb, as well as a more thorough dialogue between the co-leader and maverick regarding maverick's exploratory intentions.
Thanks Meleah for the the kind and insightful comments regarding this article. I can see the parallel in teaching a class of high school kids, and leading a group of 12 climbers, they are both similar to herding cats!
Rest assured that if I ever climb into the rats nest of large group leadership again, I will set some very clear boundaries from the outset as has been advised by many others.
Cheers;
Tim
Nice article Tim. I have to agree with others that you are being too hard on yourself. The gentle encouragement and upbeat enthusiasm I've seen you offer others on trips like this is a very effective leadership style. Some folks (myself included) don't deal well with authoritative, aplha male style leaders. Others are just morons. I know that there are things you would like to have done differently, but the bottom line is that you helped everyone get down safely.
I first read your article awhile back and it really hit home for me. As a Scout leader I work with less experienced adults and scouts all the time. People outside occasionally ask "How do you handle the responsibility...of all these lives?" I used to give a kind of glib answer like "I'm used to planning and preparing and know what to do when things go wrong." But your article reminded me that there were a couple times in the past few years when maybe I didn't do what was the best for the group even though things worked out okay. Perhaps I'll write something up for SP since one of them involved hiking in GNP. Anyway, I truly appreciated what you wrote and I can understand a little about how you felt. I am so glad you wrote it up for others to learn from, if they wish.
Thanks for your comment silversummit. While I felt confidant about dealing with most emergency situations, [first aid, weather, bivouc, etc.]it was proven to me that there are incidents that I was not prepared for. Since I was given the opportunity to learn, I felt compelled to share the experience with others, so that they might not be caught flat footed [so to speak]as I was.
I would encourage you to write about your experience in GNP!
Cheers;
Tim
I too think that you're being a bit hard on yourself. The bottom line is that you can't force people to follow your lead, and shouldn't hold yourself responsible for the poor judgment of others. Perhaps you should have vocalized your opposition a bit more, just to make it clear to the group that you didn't approve of the route. But hindsight is 20/20. The important things are that you made it out without incident, you kept the group together, and it sounds like you learned a lesson. I've had similar experiences, and I ultimately came to the same conclusion: "From here on out, I will stick to climbing with people and partners that I know and trust." I personally think this is the only way to go. There's just too much at stake to go with people whose character, judgment, and respectfulness have not been proven.
Thank You ekestes for the understanding comment! It is interesting that similar experiences led us to similar conclusions. As my rock partner says " life is too short to climb with shitty partners, or drink shitty beer"!
Cheers;
Tim
Thanks for your comments thoth. As you might suspect, I have belonged to climbing clubs for quite a few years, and even started one with my mountaineering partner Luke [RIP]. I have found them to be very good places to meet like minded people who share a love of wild places, they do however bring baggage to the day also. Most clubs necessarily require a trip leader who can coordinate logistics, and who will hopefully have some knowledge of the intended route. Although I am not a professional guide, my responsibilities for such an outing are similar, and I do not mind taking on that role, in fact I see it as helping to pay my dues to the club. My shortcomings in this instance serve as a lesson for the learning, cemented by the many considered comments to this narrative by SP members like yourself.
Best Regards;
Tim
Scott Pierce - Oct 11, 2008 2:20 pm - Hasn't voted
Techniques
Tim- very interesting and I think a fairly common occurence, especially in larger groups. I agree with dscharfman...I have found that being very clear about the rules before leaving the trailhead, and referring back to them frequently during the outing is a good way to control the group. Especially for a larger group such as you describe, I think a good technique is to tell the followers how important it is to stay as a group, and to make sure they understand that trying to outpace the leader or lagging behind the co-leader, or deviating from the route, will bring a sharp and immediate correction. I recommend for purposes of group control that as a rule of thumb, the senior leader ascends in the lead locomotive position and descends as the caboose. I have often watched professional guides at work, and rule #1 is controlling where the clients are at all times. A club outing and a guided climb are not the same thing, but neither are they totally dissimilar.
Don't beat yourself up too badly--take out a big group of strangers again soon. You will find surprising satisfaction from the success you experience when you apply your increasing quiver of group management and leadership techniques, and more importantly, the members of the group you lead will have a safer, more enjoyable mountain outing for having had the benefit of your seasoning and savvy. Go get 'em!
Thank you Scott for your good advice on leadership technique.
This article has rendered many interesting and considered comments, and I value them all. Yours is the first to overtly recommend getting back up on the horse....I don`t know.....maybe.
Cheers;
Tim
It's a shame to take such a large group into this area and I think it should be avoided in the future. Regardless of the dynamics of the group and the outcome...it would never have happened if you just kept places like this to yourself.
Thanks NoSubas for taking the time to comment on this article.
The group of "Too many people" are all local climbers/hikers, who regularly "share" their secrets of Glacier National Park, and other wondrous mountains of Western Montana. Part of being in an mountaineering society is the fellowship of great mountains with good partners, the drag of being in a mountaineering society is that sometimes, some of the partners are not equal to the setting.
I feel I covered the "would have, should have, and could have" aspects, as I explored the lessons learned. As I am not "alpha" I am also not covetous, and I do not consider that not taking the group should be one of the lessons learned. I did not discover the Joy of the mountain environment all of my own accord, it was gifted me by many gracious teachers. I hope to pass along the tradition.
I do not wish to be argumentative, but I am curious; Why it is a "shame" to bring "such a large group" to Gray Wolf?
Gray Wolf and surrounding mountains are all in a wilderness setting. There is nothing more dreadful than running into a crowd of hikers in an area where humans are rare. I know this area sees considerable traffic, nonetheless I think it takes away from the setting to have large groups of humans in wilderness places, particularly those like Gray Wolf which are largely undeveloped. Sure, I think that mountaineering societys are great, but don't need to take all of the membership into the mtns at once to exist and/or profilerate.
Saintgrizzly - Dec 16, 2008 10:56 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Too many people
"...don't need to take all of the membership into the mtns at once to exist and/or proliferate."
GMS has about 400 active members, most of whom weren't on the Gray Wolf climb.
From a leave no trace stand point, I can maybe see where you could be coming from, from a my girlfriend and I only want to see each other when we are backpacking stand point, I can only say too bad.
We were day hiking, not camping, and as such our impact was minimal. We did run into 2 different groups of 4 camping at Upper Riddel Lake. We walked considerably away from their camps, even though they were camped right along the trail. So their exposure to our group was maybe 5-10 minutes. Bummer to think we might have ruined their experience by being in that basin.
T Sharp - Sep 1, 2008 7:10 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: thanksI appreciate your enlightened comments mvs. Descending unknown couloirs is about as big a gamble as a mountaineer or peak bagger can take.
Sometimes a group gets lucky and there is a way down, like what happened with us.
Cheers;
Tim
Neven - Sep 7, 2008 8:58 pm - Hasn't voted
Care for the responsible onesTim,
Thank you for a thought provoking article. I am sure many readers experienced similar situations leading a heterogeneous group and faced similar challenges. My experience is with mush less dangeorous hikes that the one you described but here are my thoughts anyway.
I believe that the leader is responsible for those in the group that follow his or her leadership; everybody is, of course, free to leave the group but they do that at their own risk. The difficult part emotionally is not to be sidetracked by worries about the safety of the renegades but stay focused on the safety of loyalists.
Last but not least, I would say you are a good leader as evidenced by your care and effort to improve. I hope you will continue leading many climbs and hikes inthe future.
Best,
Neven
T Sharp - Sep 9, 2008 12:05 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Care for the responsible onesThank you Neven for your kind and perceptive comments. I was difficult emotionally for some in the group to reject the set route. My decision not to split up the group was colored by that fact.
Cheers;
Tim
mhimber - Sep 10, 2008 3:58 am - Voted 10/10
misunderstanding on the rogue couloirfirst of all, the english teacher in me wants to thank you for this well written, guileless, and perceptive article on group leadership. i strongly agree with thephotohiker in that the alpha male (or female!) figure need not "bite" or strong arm his or her parishioners into militeristic submission. this should especially be the case when a group of (theoretically) capable adults sign up for an organized climb led by an experienced climber familiar with the route.
also in a group of capable adults its easy to assume that everyone would have the same climbing ethics on a group outing (ie respect for the leaders and group safety). one of the things that i've learned from working with high school students (and perhaps adults are no different as people are people) is to never assume anything no matter how obvious it might seem or how large of a majority in the group seem to demonstrate an understanding of what is about to take place.
when going into a new classroom i found i have much more success when i outline what i'm teaching, why i'm teaching it, what students can expect from me, and what i expect from them before starting any actual lessons. prior to reading your article i don't think i would have thought a debriefing on expectations would have been necessary for a group like yours, though in retrospect it may have elimated problems such as deciding if and when you needed to yell or how hard of a punch maverick's nose would have required to punish his poor choice and re-establish authority.
in maverick's defense (and as i don't think has yet been mentioned in this discussion), he did ask permission (which was granted) from the coleader in regard to checking out the couloir. it was the coleader's assumption (and it seems the impression maverick gave him and others) that this would be a scouting descent. however, maverick evidently figured if it was a go then it was a go and it seems the next thing you knew, they were gone. i don't think you need to fire yourself from leading large groups (though if you're disillusioned enough to never desire to lead one again i can certainly understand). additionally as a fledgling (becoming less of a fledgling) climber, i too have trusted and continue to trust you above all others.
the mutiny on gray wolf peak is a valuable learning experience for all who lead and participate in the climbing community. participating climbers as well as leaders are responsible for the safety of the group. in a case like this what was safe for the group was staying on the planned route and letting the leaders lead. in the future, i would advise establishing clear route and safety expectations prior to the climb, as well as a more thorough dialogue between the co-leader and maverick regarding maverick's exploratory intentions.
T Sharp - Sep 11, 2008 12:13 am - Hasn't voted
Re: misunderstanding on the rogue couloirThanks Meleah for the the kind and insightful comments regarding this article. I can see the parallel in teaching a class of high school kids, and leading a group of 12 climbers, they are both similar to herding cats!
Rest assured that if I ever climb into the rats nest of large group leadership again, I will set some very clear boundaries from the outset as has been advised by many others.
Cheers;
Tim
dinwoody - Sep 16, 2008 2:04 pm - Hasn't voted
Herding catsNice article Tim. I have to agree with others that you are being too hard on yourself. The gentle encouragement and upbeat enthusiasm I've seen you offer others on trips like this is a very effective leadership style. Some folks (myself included) don't deal well with authoritative, aplha male style leaders. Others are just morons. I know that there are things you would like to have done differently, but the bottom line is that you helped everyone get down safely.
Take it easy.
T Sharp - Sep 18, 2008 1:14 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Herding catsThanks for the insightful comments dinwoody! The trip as well as this article have been a valuable learning experience!
Cheers;
Tim
silversummit - Sep 21, 2008 7:55 pm - Voted 10/10
Big impression on meI first read your article awhile back and it really hit home for me. As a Scout leader I work with less experienced adults and scouts all the time. People outside occasionally ask "How do you handle the responsibility...of all these lives?" I used to give a kind of glib answer like "I'm used to planning and preparing and know what to do when things go wrong." But your article reminded me that there were a couple times in the past few years when maybe I didn't do what was the best for the group even though things worked out okay. Perhaps I'll write something up for SP since one of them involved hiking in GNP. Anyway, I truly appreciated what you wrote and I can understand a little about how you felt. I am so glad you wrote it up for others to learn from, if they wish.
T Sharp - Sep 21, 2008 9:41 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Big impression on meThanks for your comment silversummit. While I felt confidant about dealing with most emergency situations, [first aid, weather, bivouc, etc.]it was proven to me that there are incidents that I was not prepared for. Since I was given the opportunity to learn, I felt compelled to share the experience with others, so that they might not be caught flat footed [so to speak]as I was.
I would encourage you to write about your experience in GNP!
Cheers;
Tim
ekestes - Sep 22, 2008 8:12 pm - Voted 10/10
Glad you made it out safelyI too think that you're being a bit hard on yourself. The bottom line is that you can't force people to follow your lead, and shouldn't hold yourself responsible for the poor judgment of others. Perhaps you should have vocalized your opposition a bit more, just to make it clear to the group that you didn't approve of the route. But hindsight is 20/20. The important things are that you made it out without incident, you kept the group together, and it sounds like you learned a lesson. I've had similar experiences, and I ultimately came to the same conclusion: "From here on out, I will stick to climbing with people and partners that I know and trust." I personally think this is the only way to go. There's just too much at stake to go with people whose character, judgment, and respectfulness have not been proven.
T Sharp - Sep 23, 2008 12:32 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Glad you made it out safelyThank You ekestes for the understanding comment! It is interesting that similar experiences led us to similar conclusions. As my rock partner says " life is too short to climb with shitty partners, or drink shitty beer"!
Cheers;
Tim
T Sharp - Sep 24, 2008 11:58 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Leader?Thanks for your comments thoth. As you might suspect, I have belonged to climbing clubs for quite a few years, and even started one with my mountaineering partner Luke [RIP]. I have found them to be very good places to meet like minded people who share a love of wild places, they do however bring baggage to the day also. Most clubs necessarily require a trip leader who can coordinate logistics, and who will hopefully have some knowledge of the intended route. Although I am not a professional guide, my responsibilities for such an outing are similar, and I do not mind taking on that role, in fact I see it as helping to pay my dues to the club. My shortcomings in this instance serve as a lesson for the learning, cemented by the many considered comments to this narrative by SP members like yourself.
Best Regards;
Tim
Scott Pierce - Oct 11, 2008 2:20 pm - Hasn't voted
TechniquesTim- very interesting and I think a fairly common occurence, especially in larger groups. I agree with dscharfman...I have found that being very clear about the rules before leaving the trailhead, and referring back to them frequently during the outing is a good way to control the group. Especially for a larger group such as you describe, I think a good technique is to tell the followers how important it is to stay as a group, and to make sure they understand that trying to outpace the leader or lagging behind the co-leader, or deviating from the route, will bring a sharp and immediate correction. I recommend for purposes of group control that as a rule of thumb, the senior leader ascends in the lead locomotive position and descends as the caboose. I have often watched professional guides at work, and rule #1 is controlling where the clients are at all times. A club outing and a guided climb are not the same thing, but neither are they totally dissimilar.
Don't beat yourself up too badly--take out a big group of strangers again soon. You will find surprising satisfaction from the success you experience when you apply your increasing quiver of group management and leadership techniques, and more importantly, the members of the group you lead will have a safer, more enjoyable mountain outing for having had the benefit of your seasoning and savvy. Go get 'em!
Scott
T Sharp - Oct 11, 2008 8:10 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: TechniquesThank you Scott for your good advice on leadership technique.
This article has rendered many interesting and considered comments, and I value them all. Yours is the first to overtly recommend getting back up on the horse....I don`t know.....maybe.
Cheers;
Tim
NoSubas - Dec 15, 2008 3:57 pm - Hasn't voted
Too many peopleIt's a shame to take such a large group into this area and I think it should be avoided in the future. Regardless of the dynamics of the group and the outcome...it would never have happened if you just kept places like this to yourself.
T Sharp - Dec 16, 2008 1:40 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Too many peopleThanks NoSubas for taking the time to comment on this article.
The group of "Too many people" are all local climbers/hikers, who regularly "share" their secrets of Glacier National Park, and other wondrous mountains of Western Montana. Part of being in an mountaineering society is the fellowship of great mountains with good partners, the drag of being in a mountaineering society is that sometimes, some of the partners are not equal to the setting.
I feel I covered the "would have, should have, and could have" aspects, as I explored the lessons learned. As I am not "alpha" I am also not covetous, and I do not consider that not taking the group should be one of the lessons learned. I did not discover the Joy of the mountain environment all of my own accord, it was gifted me by many gracious teachers. I hope to pass along the tradition.
I do not wish to be argumentative, but I am curious; Why it is a "shame" to bring "such a large group" to Gray Wolf?
NoSubas - Dec 16, 2008 2:18 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Too many peopleGray Wolf and surrounding mountains are all in a wilderness setting. There is nothing more dreadful than running into a crowd of hikers in an area where humans are rare. I know this area sees considerable traffic, nonetheless I think it takes away from the setting to have large groups of humans in wilderness places, particularly those like Gray Wolf which are largely undeveloped. Sure, I think that mountaineering societys are great, but don't need to take all of the membership into the mtns at once to exist and/or profilerate.
Saintgrizzly - Dec 16, 2008 10:56 pm - Voted 10/10
Re: Too many people"...don't need to take all of the membership into the mtns at once to exist and/or proliferate."
GMS has about 400 active members, most of whom weren't on the Gray Wolf climb.
T Sharp - Dec 17, 2008 12:02 am - Hasn't voted
Re: Too many peopleFrom a leave no trace stand point, I can maybe see where you could be coming from, from a my girlfriend and I only want to see each other when we are backpacking stand point, I can only say too bad.
We were day hiking, not camping, and as such our impact was minimal. We did run into 2 different groups of 4 camping at Upper Riddel Lake. We walked considerably away from their camps, even though they were camped right along the trail. So their exposure to our group was maybe 5-10 minutes. Bummer to think we might have ruined their experience by being in that basin.
NoSubas - Dec 17, 2008 7:18 pm - Hasn't voted
Re: Too many peoplenice smug reply saint. I'm not impressed by the big numbers.